Introduction

Jeremy Rivera: Hello, I’m Jeremy Rivera, your Unscripted Podcast host, and I’m here with Chuck McHenry. Why don’t you give yourself an introduction to these folks, let them know why they should trust you as an expert in your industry, and let them know what that industry is. 

Chuck McHenry: Awesome. Well, Jeremy, I actually have a marketing background and I started in 2004. I created my first web business and that was medical supplies and medical equipment. And I did that for about a year and a half or so, two years. 

When I went to create the website, back then it didn’t have a lot of resources. And so I was limited on budget. So I spent all my money creating what I thought at the time was an awesome website. And once I launched, and I was very naive, once I launched, I was like, “All right, where are all the sales at?”

I thought the internet was going to flood in with all these orders. Then I learned, man, you gotta learn the marketing side of things. And I was like, crap, I didn’t save any money for the marketing side. So that forced me to learn SEO myself.

The Early SEO Learning Journey

So I spent like the next year just like, probably especially like that first six months, just every minute I had I was reading everything I could about SEO and learning. I was on the forums because back then we didn’t really have—I don’t think we even had Twitter back then. So we were on these forums all the time, Digital Point forums and SEO Guy forums, and I was trying to learn as much as I can on how to rank a website and get traffic.

Because I’d spent all this money designing and creating and buying product and spending all this on this new company I started, but I had no marketing. So it took me a while, but I got it going eventually.

The first thing that popped up was Yahoo—I was ranking really well in Yahoo for medical supplies and medical equipment and then a lot of little subcategories. And that was pretty good because it started bringing in some good sales and then eventually started ranking in Google as well.

Transitioning to SEO Services

Along the way of that journey, I found that there were other ways to make money online. And back then, there wasn’t a lot of SEO companies. There were some, for sure. There wasn’t a lot. Like nowadays, I mean, there’s probably, gosh, probably 100x than what there was back in 2004, 2005.

So quickly right away, there were people like, “Wow, help me with my website, help me with my company.” So I started doing that. I was helping a lot of local businesses out in the Palm Springs area.

At some point I was like, we were doing okay with medical supplies and medical equipment, but it was just—it was a little bit easier and I actually enjoyed doing the SEO a little bit better. So we ended up selling the medical supply company, actually to a company who was in Tennessee somewhere. Obviously that was years ago and it’s gone now.

The Web Directory Era

So I focused online on SEO and actually went the—we owned a web directory for a while that was pretty popular at the time because back in, during that timeframe, web directories were kind of the thing. That’s where most companies would go and get their backlinks from was web directories.

So at one point we had a PR eight—I don’t know if anyone remembers the PRs—

Jeremy: The green bars, yes.

Chuck: At a PR eight web directory, people were just dropping cash to get listed in my web directory, which was nice. And then I’d have my own SEO clients and did that for a long time.

Along the way we kind of changed the name of the SEO agency, took on a little bit more clients that weren’t as local, but just more in the U.S. We did have some that were international. I didn’t really love working with the international clients though with the timeframe differences and sometimes the expectations were different too.

Just, I think it was still early in SEO and marketing and some of the expectations were a little bit different of what they wanted to do. And I didn’t really focus on paid advertising—mostly just search engine optimization. That was my niche. I loved on-page SEO audits, link building.

The Affiliate Marketing Phase

We did that for a long time. Along the way, of course, like many SEOs, you have your own sites. We dabbled in affiliate marketing for a long time, did well in the payday loan space, and that was kind of nice.

And then, we had probably all of our eggs in too big of a basket where our agency—we probably were about 60% one client. And this client had a huge portfolio of domains. And I’m talking some of the best domains that you would think of. And I don’t really want to say their names, but some of them were, and this was at the time, 10 years ago, were seven figure domain names.

And we helped develop those websites and do the SEO for them. And anyway, he was a great client for years. And then one day, he sold a lot of his portfolios overnight—basically lost 60% of our income overnight. So that was kind of difficult.

Moving into Home Services

At the time, I was like, I needed to supplement my income a little bit. There was this HVAC company, plumbing company that was looking for somebody to handle their marketing, but they wanted more of an in-house position. So I went and did that with them for a little bit.

After I was there for like six months, they were like, “We want you to run the company.” I was like, I didn’t want to do that, but I was like, okay, they made it worth my while. And so I spent about six, seven years running their company. And so I was the general manager. I did more than just marketing—oversaw the technicians, oversaw the plumbing manager, the HVAC manager and whatnot.

So I did that for a while. And then along the way, I definitely liked the home service industry. And so we started our own service business, home service business. And it was just air duct cleaning, dryer vent cleaning, and a little bit of pressure washing, but mostly air duct cleaning was like the main part of our business.

So I had a few SEO clients still. I was the general manager of a plumbing and HVAC company, and we started our own company as well. We happened to find—it took a couple employees to go through—but we happened to find a really great employee that was able to be very self-sufficient, handled most of the jobs by himself. If there were bigger jobs, we’d give him a helper. So I was really hands-off and just kind of overseeing the operation where I wasn’t working in it day-in-day-out.

Recent Business Evolution

So we had that for a while. And then I always knew I wanted to do a little something bigger. And so we got into the plumbing industry. And that was just about a year ago. And so I did that for a while, but this past year plumbing’s been really challenging in Southern California.

So after having that business for just about 10 months, it made a good decision for us to sell it. And so we sold that portion of our business and now we’re just focusing on the pressure washing and window cleaning. I do love the home service industry. And so that’s what we’re doing.

I want to be a little bit more hands-on this time too. I actually like playing—I call it playing—but I love working with the pressure washer. It’s kind of fun. You’re out there and who doesn’t like grabbing the hose and squirting things down, right? It’s kind of fun.

The ASMR of Power Washing

Jeremy: There’s an ASMR aspect of that where they have like those subreddits of like videos of just people power washing things and like TikToks. There’s a whole thread—it’s like the people that just crinkle paper for YouTube channels. People like things to be really clean and like watching the process.

I follow, I had a conversation with a guy that does stump grinding and he just does these sped up videos of him just cleaning out a stump with this gigantic machine. And I think there’s something attractive about that hybrid role of like SEO marketing and like a hands-on specific service—a home service. There’s something about that combination that seems kind of satisfactory.

I’m curious about what was the name of the brand of the power washing company that you just spun off and kind of what’s your matrix of experience and approach of what are you seeing in the past two years when it comes to strategy, when it comes to SEO, when it comes to process to bolster specific services. What are you doing for a specific service that you’re doing and how does that match up to what you’re doing in the marketing side of things?

Gecko Power Wash and Current SEO Strategy

Chuck: Yeah, so the name of the company we spun off is Gecko Power Wash.

Basically, I noticed that, especially in like the—and you mentioned stump grinding—I noticed that there’s a lot of home service businesses that are starting to pop up in different niches now. Like there wasn’t a lot of stump grinders a couple of years ago. You had some, but now there seems to be more popping up and line striping parking lots and a lot more in the pressure washing businesses.

Especially I’m in Southern California, but especially in like Florida area. It’s crazy how many pressure washing companies are popping up now and whatnot.

A lot of it is kind of interesting. It’s kind of like how we used to joke a lot like, you know, your fashion—it’s going to come back in style. Like everyone has these looks and, you know, hold on to those clothes. It’s going to be back in style. Well, kind of the same thing’s happening in the SEO industry and the marketing industry, especially for local SEO, where everyone’s getting back to kind of like the basics now, because that’s what’s working in the industry.

Back to SEO Basics

I noticed that stuff that we were doing—like the basic stuff that we were doing that some people got away from—but it’s all the basics. When you’re creating the websites, the location pages are huge nowadays. I’ve noticed especially now for more competitive markets, like HVAC—it’s great to have those location pages. You don’t want to go too crazy with them.

Maybe 15 or 20 of the nearby cities that you have, you’re creating these location pages with great SEO on there, using just the basic stuff that the title tags and maybe you’re sprinkling in a keyword here or there, you’re not overdoing it. But those location pages are hugely important because it’s giving Google a signal saying, you actually do work in this city. And without those location pages, your advertising is not going to show up in those cities as much.

Which is crazy. So if you look at like some of the LSA and some of the companies that really dominate, they’re the ones that have all these city pages. And the ones that don’t have the city pages, sure, they’re coming up like maybe in a city that are close by, but the ones that have the proper city pages, man, they’re dominating really well on the LSA.

So one hand is feeding the other. A lot of people are like, the on-page SEO is just for on-page—yeah, no, I mean, for local showing up on the results, but it actually influences the paid advertising as well.

The Evolution Away from and Back to Location Pages

Jeremy: Yeah, I think there’s a lot more hybridization in this generation. I remember when we moved away from, and Google pushed us, and they said, “Hey, but location pages are doorway pages. And they’re not really offering anything unique.” And we’re like, “Okay, I guess.” And so we kind of had to evolve this, okay, well, I guess we’ll do a huge content umbrella of all things.

And so everybody started writing their own versions of what is power washing? Like how many articles from how many different SEO agencies had their own version of what is power washing? But now with what I’m seeing, it’s what is old is new because the LLM based playbook—what it needs, what it gathers from your site when it crawls is not—it already knows what power washing is.

What it would be absorbing or trying to take from your site or crawl from your site is what’s what you do specifically, where, and why—like what’s your USP, which when it comes down to it, like that’s marketing. Like if laying out your unique selling proposition is what a website should do.

And so somehow, like there’s so many websites that just fail to outline how this process works. Like I wanted to get dropped gravel for my driveway. And like there was none of the gravel bros that I looked up had anything about like, okay, like, do you deliver? Does it get spread out automatically? Do you spread it out? Like does it come in one load? Is there a specific amount? Is there, are there different types of gravel?

And none of that was on their site. It was just like a phone number, pictures of gravel, and like an article about how gravel improves your home value. I’m like, okay, but how do you deliver it? Like, you know, that’s—and you talk to local service owners and that’s usually the gap too of like the people that are running around too much doing the thing and not remembering to update or manage their site.

You would save so much time on the phone explaining your business again and again if you just put proper information on your site describing your process. Like, hey, you call, we spec out the location, you can send us an address, we look at it from Google Maps, we give you a quote, we come out with the washer, we spray it from top to stern—and you know, like, actually just say what you do here, right?

User Experience and Service Explanation

Chuck: Yeah, instead of having five different articles on your site that explains what gravel is and why it’s important for your driveway. I mean, that’s kind of what the old school SEO was doing for a while. But yeah, absolutely. Use your experience, man. It’s just making sure that when somebody comes to your website, they’re getting a good sense of what you’re going to do for them in detail. I think that’s absolutely huge.

And I noticed in when it comes to marketing, there’s a lot of companies that are just so far behind what they could be doing. A good example is that local 3-pack. A lot of times there’s companies that could be ranking for so much more, but they’re not even listing their full services on their website. They’re not explaining it. You’ve got to let Google know, hey, these are what we do.

They’ll list the basic services, but they’re not listing everything else. I’ll talk to a company, “You guys do this, you guys do that.” “Oh yeah, we do that.” “Why doesn’t it say that on your website?”

But yeah, to your point though, the user experience—that would be really hitting out of the ballpark is explaining to customers what you actually do, how you do it, so that way they feel comfortable. And then it does save a phone call too. “Oh, I read it on your website. I see the process,” instead of them having to ask those 20 questions.

The Return to Basic Marketing Principles

Jeremy: Yeah, it’s like, you know, with a CPR class—like it’s so vague—like okay, am I—is there going to be a live person? Is there a dummy? Like how long is it? How many sessions do I need to go to to get certified? Like, you know, people kind of just forget the detail.

And it’s interesting. I was talking with my friend Michael McDougald from Writing Agency about like vector embeddings about content and we were kind of playing around with how describing what it is that you do in detail and how you do it well—like all of those things are this type of semantic things—semantic keyword matching and latent symmetry and vector embedding.

Like all of that’s fancy computer talk for like talking in a straight line about what it is that you do. And it’s funny that we have to like—SEOs invented all of this fancy reverse engineering of Google and like coming up with these models based off of the Google links, based off of the Yahoo links, based off of endpoint exploits to understand queries.

And it comes basically—circles back around to like the LLMs open down the door, Google starts choking off results with these LLM AI powered overviews, and it basically comes down to like are you selling—are you defining your unique selling proposition at the bottom of the funnel—like yes or no?

AI and Customer Search Behavior

Chuck: Yeah, absolutely. You know what’s crazy is like, I’ve seen it now where customers are actually starting to use the AI to try to find service providers. They’re going to ChatGPT and they’re like, “Okay, I need a window cleaning company in Redlands, California.”

And they see, it will give them either one sometimes or sometimes they’ll give them three different options. And it’s crazy that the data that it pulls in to kind of figure out who’s the best. But I know a lot of it does pull like reviews and stuff like that. And it’s just, it’s pretty amazing that customers are starting to actually use tools like that to find it.

And I wonder where we’re gonna be. I’m sure it’s gonna eat into the search from Google eventually, and who knows, it probably already is on such a small level, but think about it, gosh, three to four years from now, how much is that gonna eat into Google search? And what do we need to do as marketers to make sure that we’re marketing for that?

And still a lot of it is just creating a kick-ass company with good reviews and some basic SEO because I know the AI is pulling information off your website as well and it’s serving it up.

Bots Creating Content for Bots

Jeremy: I think that matches—I was laughing with Matt Brooks of SEOteric about how we’re using bots to create content for bots, for bots to discover, to bring back to humans. So there’s like two humans at the end of the process where the searcher is using a bot to find content to prove it.

And on the other side, we’re using LLM based programs to generate all of this content to then be available to the other bot if it thinks it’s relevant. And so like, there’s kind of like a double middleman now of LLM-based tools from both ends meeting in the middle, where at a certain point we’re going to have more agents where you’re specifically asking them to, “Hey, book me a power washer.”

And it’s going to run the whole process, send messages through contact forms to our sites, and those are going to be more and more powered by LLMs. I use Lead Truffle, which is a simple chat interface for my local service business that I’m helping promote. And it’s just your name and phone number, and it starts a text message conversation.

So if it fills out that and it starts a text message conversation from an LLM to an LLM and setting up a potential appointment, like without human involvement—like that’s just like that kind of insanity. Like if you said that that was going to happen 10 years ago, that’s science fiction. But now it’s happened in a few cases and it’s going to be happening more.

The Diversification of Search

As we see the impact, in my opinion, of the diversity of search because of people finally being able to break Google’s monopoly. And I think where we’re going, where we’re seeing it the most is the opening of Bing’s index to ChatGPT, Perplexity and other alternatives.

So Microsoft is winning by breaking the back of the Google monopoly that gave us our SEO golden age, right? 2010 to 2020—SEO was ranking in Google. We were glorified Google reverse engineers. Now since 2020, we’re starting to have to redevelop those skills in my opinion. We’re having to redevelop because the promise that we got in—when does Siri come out, 2012?—it’s been crap for 13 years.

But now, ChatGPT enabled Siri, ChatGPT enabled browsers, ChatGPT, an LLM, Claude, some of the others. I think there were two new browsers that were announced and a new partnership that’s enabling GPT for Siri. Now we’re going to see, because those ecosystems don’t loop in Google, they use Bing’s index.

And so now we’re seeing the next phase of the war between Apple and Google and Google’s losing ground, in my opinion. And they’re also choking themselves to death with their AI overviews and force feeding everybody. So there’s less and less reason—they’re “good enough” results as A.J. Cohn said in his famous article a couple of years—yeah, these results are good enough.

And like the sacrifice of search quality for the sake of something—I guess it’s advertising revenue. The more they want all of the meat from the publishers, but they don’t want to pass on the clicks and they’ve gone back on our devil’s bargain. And so now there’s no reason not to bargain with another devil as an SEO.

Google’s AI Overview Problems

Chuck: Yeah, those AI results in Google, they can be really helpful depending on the query. But a lot of times, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, it gets the information wrong. And it’s like very confusing. And it really is very dependent on what you’re searching, but I just know from my experience a few times, like I’ll Google it. I’m like, “Wow, this isn’t even accurate information.”

It’s like, I don’t know where it’s getting it from, but it’s like hashing two pieces of information together or several pieces of information together and it’s not getting the actual facts right. And so sometimes I’m like, this is just a waste—misleading people.

Jeremy: Yeah, no, I had the same thing of like I was trying to order cords for my SNES classic. It’s like the little box that looks like a small Super Nintendo and but it has like these different USB cords called USB-micro B and I kept trying to Google “USB micro B controller” and it would just give me regular USB stuff and I couldn’t find anything like I did like five or six different types of searches.

To try to find sites or even e-commerce. First was the sponsored, which were inaccurate. Then I’d go to the organic results for e-commerce, also not the right… They weren’t even for controllers. They were just regular USB cords and not the right kind of USB cord.

So I finally had to use Claude and said, “Hey, what type of cord does this SNES… it’s the classic edition and it uses the Wii U remote. So you need a…” We you, here’s two vendors that provide controllers for emulators with the micro-B. I’m like, thank you.

So like even when I extensively used Google to find the answer, it was—one, it was a messy space, but it’s like I can’t get the—I know what the answer is and if I order the wrong size USB this is useless. And the search quality is just terrible. You’re right, the AI overviews, depending on—even the AI overviews on Google were useless. I had to go to Claude to get a useful answer.

Ranking in LLMs – The New Challenge

Jeremy: And as an SEO, now we’re getting the secondary question, how do we rank in LLMs? How do we show up in ChatGPT? How do we show up in Perplexity?

And that becomes the question of, do we fall down the same stairs again? Because the stairs that we fell down the first time were like, oh, the answer is obviously like a rank tracker. And how—we’re seeing a renaissance of like a whole bunch of people racing to try to get brand sentiment LLM monitoring tools in the SaaS space.

Chuck: Yeah, I almost feel like it’s the—right now it’s very heavily on the sentiment. So it’s like how many websites out there? And obviously they probably, I would assume that they would weigh like trusted websites a little bit more heavily, but definitely sentiment and based off my experience on my research that I’ve done, and it’s like, yeah, this is the best because—it’ll sometimes, depending on which one you’re using, it’ll say:

If you expand it, it’ll say why it’s trusted more, and it’ll expand on the reviews, and it’ll say, “Oh, they’re listed on this site, they have this many reviews, and a lot of the reviews mention this.” They’ll be pulling some of the information from the reviews and what it’s actually mentioning as well.

Does that mean that we’re going to see services popping up on Fiverr that people are just paying to list a bunch of spammy reviews and create pages out there? I hope not, but it kind of feels like it’s just pulling from a lot of the web pages out there and reading it and going from there.

Multi-Channel Marketing Strategy

Jeremy: So what are you doing on local services like driveway pressure washing beyond the site? Is there thought in your head as far as like multiple channels, like using social media or secondary sources? Like what’s your way of thinking about marketing beyond just the Google SERP?

Chuck: Yeah, so definitely social media is huge right now. I know lots of companies that do extremely well with TikTok and Instagram. And honestly, I feel like YouTube and TikTok is huge. Like just setting up a tripod and showing where you’re at and at the end of the day, taking that footage and showing what you did and tagging it and talking about what your location was. That’s huge right now.

You could be doing a job in Palm Springs where you’re whether it be a commercial job or residential job, putting all that information on TikTok so it shows up and it’s searchable. I mean, that is definitely huge now. And then of course, the algorithms will—if somebody’s in Palm Springs area, they’ll get a lot more content for that area.

So it’s very important that you’re tagging it and that you’re mentioning where you’re at and whatnot, because you’re going to get a lot more views from your social media that way. And people are more apt to hire you if they’ve seen you on the social media—not just some faceless business. They’re like, “I’ve seen your videos.” So that’s gonna be a huge part of our plan.

And for me, I actually love YouTube and I feel like there’s a great way to help get extra links in the search results as well if you’re doing it right. It’s kind of like doing the same thing, doing smaller videos for YouTube, but talking about your service, specifically what you’re doing and where you’re doing it at and those things pop up in the search results phenomenally.

So it might be hard sometimes to rank a webpage for pressure washing in Riverside, but you do a video on YouTube about it, that thing pops up right away.

Bing and Social Signals

Jeremy: Right. Yeah, no, that’s legit. In thinking about, like, there’s two things that I want to say about that. One is remember that Bing, since I want to say 2008, Dwayne Forrester, when he still worked at Bing, acknowledged that social signals were an inherent part of the algorithm for Bing. And now Bing matters because half of the LLM-based search tools are strengthened if you’re indexed.

So step one is add the IndexNow plugin if you’re on WordPress. If you’re not on WordPress, I think Wix has a plugin for IndexNow. Squarespace I think you can get a mod that uses IndexNow. And it basically pushes your content to ensure it’s like the opposite game—like Google is constantly, I feel like a constant whack-a-mole program of like, okay, which of my pages aren’t in the index now for my site?

Google Search Console and Bing on the other hand is like, “Give me all of the pages.” Push it into my—get me everything all sorted out. It’s the kind of opposite problem. Like step one is using the IndexNow part of Bing, but also like remembering social signals impact your rankings, impact your indexation.

So you gotta have a bigger play than just your website now. You gotta think about is there a downloadable element that I can capture somebody’s email or do a paid social that goes to a landing page where I’m capturing their email and actually have some sort of true value follow-up—not like, because it can go too far. Like you get somebody’s—you put in your email and you get, you know, Lovesac message.

Like Lovesac’s an alternative to couches like my wife’s like checking into it and I put in my email—like I don’t need a text message every other day about a Lovesac couch. Like I’m sorry, like let’s be smart about it, but also grab your piece of the pie. Like there’s still value and following up with emails that you gain, but also it’s also double dipping into retargeting budgets. That’s how you kind of show up where they’re at.

Instagram is very notorious for, you look at one raccoon video and you’re watching raccoon videos on the algorithm for the next week. So if you can get them to look at a power washing video, then you want to be the one where your power washing video is showing up in their algorithm.

Instagram Business Indexing

Chuck: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it was Google last week that just mentioned they came out and said, “OK, we’re going to start indexing Instagram for businesses.” And that was kind of a huge deal. So not for like your personal accounts, but they’re going to start indexing. So same thing like TikTok. If you’re going out and doing something, mention what you’re doing, mention where you’re doing it at. And there’s going to be a good chance you’re going to show up in the SERPs there. And that’s just another way to get your brand some more exposure.

Jeremy: You know, now that you mention it, I missed the announcement, but I just did an audit like three days ago and I looked at the branded SERP result and in the screenshot, I was like, okay, here’s your branded result. You’ve got site links. You got a video box with your Insta videos are showing up. It did not occur to me until this moment that you’re right. Like those came from their Google, their Insta business page, which previously it would only be from individual users. So that’s new.

I’m kind of happy because I’ve been posting a lot of my podcast stuff on Insta, just grabbing clips and stuff. So I’m happy about that for myself, but now I got to go back to the whiteboard, look at some clients. So I’d say, “Hey, you got an Instagram channel? Let’s see what we can do. Grab some search surface.”

The Challenge of Social Media for Traditional SEOs

Chuck: Yeah, and it’s hard for me too because we do have like in our family we have some social media influencers and I mean we got some that just have crazy amounts of followers and that’s their job for a living. And I’ve never as an old school marketing SEO guy like I was never like the hugest fan of social media. Like I know it’s important but man it’s just so hard pushing and going, “Let’s create something that we have systems in place that we’re gonna do this going forward like every other job type of thing.” Because it is, it’s huge, it’s important.

Jeremy: It is a generational thing because my kids—my girl, she’s 12 now, my boy, he’s six. But just thinking about how he’s six and his future career isn’t a scientist, isn’t NASA, he wants to be a YouTuber making Minecraft videos and making Minecraft mods.

Chuck: And he can! Crazy, right?

Jeremy: And he can, I could literally help him be a Minecraft mod and like I could give him a setup. I’m not going to, because I don’t believe in child exploitation, but like at least for now, like the market is big enough and the content demand is interesting enough and the cost value input opportunity is there that there are unique opportunities and there’s platforms that businesses should check out.

As far as like checking what I think it’s something cat—doja cat maybe—of like a platform that connects you with small dollar influencers who have like a small load that are trying to get bigger and you can push your product or brand that way. There’s new and interesting channels to kind of think about cross-braiding traditional SEO and tying it in and it all comes back to that value proposition too of like what you say you do here.

The Binary Nature of Modern Marketing

And there are ways now to get that attention. I just did a killer interview—I haven’t released it yet—he was an old-school ad guy and he said SEOs didn’t like ads because it’s a binary and it’s not something that you have XYZ measurement or metrics or impressions—is it working or is it not?

You ran an ad and it was either working or not working. And we’re getting to that point now of almost with SEO. It’s either working or it’s not working. It doesn’t almost—with the disconnect between, the great disconnect in Google between impressions and clicks, it’s like, is it working or not? Even if like the metrics aren’t there, like it’s really hard to be a numbers-based metrics SEO marketing person at this moment because we got more black boxes than ever.

They’ve got the social media algorithm black box. We’ve got Google’s black box. We’ve got the black box of LLM AI overviews, and we have zero visibility. We have input, something happens, output, but we got so many inputs going into so many different spaces where we’re just looking at the output that it’s becoming more vibe marketing than ever.

The Need for Holistic Digital Marketing

Chuck: Yeah, no, you’re absolutely right. **